Best flushing breed for hunting swamps

[Nozzer]

I live in Washington near a reservation that is notorious for being load with pheasant that enjoy hiding in cattails, marshes, and 6' tall grass. In other words, very difficult territory for a pointing dog to navigate on point and hope the pheasant flushes on a staunch point. I'm convinced, the best way to hunt this area is to invest in a flushing breed.

I have my heart set on a Boykin Spaniel for sentimental purposes and I would hope its breeding for hunting the marshy low country of South Carolina. My friend insists I'm wrong and should aim for a Labrador Retriever.

My question, what is your recommendation for a flushing breed that can handle grass so thick it has to leap through it in order to move through?

[Chemist]

I think you answered your own question. You have your heart set on a Boykin. Who is paying for the dog and upkeep? Who is training it? Who is it living with during the 9 months that aren't hunting season? Get what you want, and it sounds like that is a Boykin. I know a guy that uses Boykins as duck dogs and is very pleased with them.

I also hunt Eastern Washington, and have a GSP that is a bit over 70 pounds. He will pile in the cattails if he smells birds. He isn't jumping over the cattails, he is pushing through/ sliding between. If he were smaller he would slip in between easier in my opinion. That said about 5 percent of the sloughs here have cattails so thick he physically can't get through. A lab is not going to be able to bust through any better. The 95 percent he can get in, a Boykin/Cocker/Springer would also make it through.

[gonehuntin']

I think what you want is a dog that can "weasel" through the grass, not jump at it and bull through it. A friend of mine is knowledgable about Boykin's and loves them. Were it me, and if I hunted some waterfowl as well, I'd opt for a SMALLER breed lab. It would go through the cattail like a Boykin and handle the cold water and waterfowl as well. If you never hunt waterfowl, Boykin or FIELD BRED SPRINGER. Don't get a Springer from show lines, they can be worthless.

[Steve007]

Boykins are certainly trendy these days and are well-promoted. Certainly people who have them like them-- with good reason. However, keep in mind that they are the state dog of South Carolina. While any good dog can withstand some level of cold weather for a period of time, I would give some thought to the American Water Spaniel. They are the state dog of Wisconsin and are quite probably more suited to the weather conditions I expect the dog might encounter. They are similar in size --Water Spaniel with heavier bone and tougher with a much better coat -- and in fact, the Boykin came from a Water Spaniel named Dumpy (true name) that was adopted by Whit Boykin. Also, AWS have a very low incidence of hip dysplasia, and Boykins are very high, which is something you might consider. Anyway, look them up. It is a viable choice.

[Chemist]

I think what you want is a dog that can "weasel" through the grass, not jump at it and bull through it. A friend of mine is knowledgable about Boykin's and loves them. Were it me, and if I hunted some waterfowl as well, I'd opt for a SMALLER breed lab. It would go through the cattail like a Boykin and handle the cold water and waterfowl as well. If you never hunt waterfowl, Boykin or FIELD BRED SPRINGER. Don't get a Springer from show lines, they can be worthless.

Not saying a small breed lab wouldn't work really well for him as well, but I don't think a Boykin would be a hinderance for the majority of duck hunters in southern WA. Of course watch your dog, and if hypothermia is a risk pack it up, but it generally gets chilly here, not upper midwest level cold. I know a guy locally who is primarily a duck hunter who has been using Boykins for at least a decade, he has more than one and has been happy with them.

[Nozzer]

Gentlemen, thank you very much for the thoughtful responses. Honestly, I've only hunted my Brittanys in that swamp land on the rez and they simply were not having it. They're smaller dogs, athletic, but are literally walking on the grass bent over to get anywhere and I'm not having it. I want them to hunt as long as possible without hip issues from day in/day out bush whacking. If you guys say a Boykin Spaniel is athletic enough to pull that off then I think we're heading in the right direction.

I'm not about to train a Brittany to hunt and point in cattails, I'm not skilled enough nor have the spiritual fortitude to see them struggle. I occasionally jump ducks, rarely sit in a blind and also have a penchant for chasing and flushing rabbits. I think a Boykin Spaniel is on the list! Thanks again!

[Steve007]

If you get a pup, make sure the parents are OFA certified. Once you get the registered names of parents, it will be listed at the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals website. Boykins are off the charts for bad hips. There are 200 breeds and statistically, they are thirteenth ranked worst for hip dysplasia with 34.8% of dogs affected and that is of the x-rays that are sent in. If the hips are really bad, of course, no one is going to waste money sending in x-rays to the OFA or PennHip, so you can assume the actual numbers are higher than that. Young dogs can get usually away with HD, but it will catch up with them.

[Chemist]

Gentlemen, thank you very much for the thoughtful responses. Honestly, I've only hunted my Brittanys in that swamp land on the rez and they simply were not having it. They're smaller dogs, athletic, but are literally walking on the grass bent over to get anywhere and I'm not having it. I want them to hunt as long as possible without hip issues from day in/day out bush whacking. If you guys say a Boykin Spaniel is athletic enough to pull that off then I think we're heading in the right direction.

I'm not about to train a Brittany to hunt and point in cattails, I'm not skilled enough nor have the spiritual fortitude to see them struggle. I occasionally jump ducks, rarely sit in a blind and also have a penchant for chasing and flushing rabbits. I think a Boykin Spaniel is on the list! Thanks again!

How big are your Brits? Larger American variety or a small French Brittany? I have never hunted the reservation myself, but have seen some sloughs in the area with cattails so thick I am not convinced any dog would make it through. It isn't all of the cattails in the area, but it is some of them. Might be a part of the reason pheasants are so thick in those areas......even the coyotes might have trouble.

Good advice from Steve above for any breed, but especially true for breeds prone to hip dysplasia.

[Nozzer]

If you get a pup, make sure the parents are OFA certified. Once you get the registered names of parents, it will be listed at the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals website. Boykins are off the charts for bad hips. There are 200 breeds and statistically, they are thirteenth ranked worst for hip dysplasia with 34.8% of dogs affected and that is of the x-rays that are sent in. If the hips are really bad, of course, no one is going to waste money sending in x-rays to the OFA or PennHip, so you can assume the actual numbers are higher than that. Young dogs can get usually away with HD, but it will catch up with them.

Thanks for the heads-up on that! If there is one thing that concerns me, it's seeing a dog work too hard in the thick brush and come out limping. I understand, for a smaller breed especially, that they can bust or jump their way through but that eventually wears on a dog and with hip issues the poor "bleep" would come to untimely early retirement. My poor American Brittany was hunted in swamp land, forced to hop and wind his away through terrible vegetation and now at 10 years of age can only hunt 3-4 hours before ending the day with a seriously bad limp. That is one critical issue I want to avoid with a flushing dog.

[Nozzer]

I think you answered your own question. You have your heart set on a Boykin. Who is paying for the dog and upkeep? Who is training it? Who is it living with during the 9 months that aren't hunting season? Get what you want, and it sounds like that is a Boykin. I know a guy that uses Boykins as duck dogs and is very pleased with them.

I also hunt Eastern Washington, and have a GSP that is a bit over 70 pounds. He will pile in the cattails if he smells birds. He isn't jumping over the cattails, he is pushing through/ sliding between. If he were smaller he would slip in between easier in my opinion. That said about 5 percent of the sloughs here have cattails so thick he physically can't get through. A lab is not going to be able to bust through any better. The 95 percent he can get in, a Boykin/Cocker/Springer would also make it through.

I've not hunted much behind flushing dogs, only pointers, so this is interesting to learn. Have you had a chance to hunt behind many flushing breeds? To your mind, in Washington, what do you see most often? Which breed left the biggest impression on you?

[Chemist]

I don't have the same amount of experience with flushing breeds as some of the ladies and gentlemen on this board, so if you are looking for advice on flushing breeds, you should probably be soliciting others advice as well.

I will also clarify, that the point I was trying to make where you quoted me was to get the dog YOU want, not the dog that someone else wants you to get. A lot of people have a strong opinion on what the perfect hunting breed is, and their opinion is correct for them. At the end of the day the best hunting breed is a matter of personal choice. I am a firm believer that a part of that personal choice can be for reasons outside of hunting. For example, labs are great hunting dogs, particularly for ducks, but when you start talking to folks a lot will admit their duck dogs are labs because they had one as a kid, or they have small kids and they want a dog that the kids can tug on the ears of. I have heard the same admitted by some folks with golden retrievers. For others Chessies are the best duck dog. All three (and others) do a great job and are the best duck dog for that person. I was not trying to claim that Boykins are better than the other flushing breeds (I don't know them well enough to say that), just that you had an interest for sentimental reasons and sometimes that is a good enough reason to get the breed and hunt it. My only exposure to the breed aside from watching videos is in a social setting. I know a guy who only hunts ducks here and uses Boykins, but I have never hunted with him.

I have only lived in Washington for a little over 7 years. Before that I was in the Midwest and Southwest where I hunted both big game and small game. I was spoiled with big game where I lived previously and have not been impressed with Washingtons big game hunting. It took a couple years after moving here to make friends who had hunting dogs, and eventually get myself another dog so I have only been seriously hunting the area for birds for 4-5 years.

I have hunted over flushing dogs, and some of them in the Washington area, but not in my opinion none of them were flushing specific breeds. The flushing dogs I have hunted over are a Chessie, a couple labs, a herding cross breed, a German Shepard, and a Weimaraner.

I will clarify for the weim that while they are normally a pointing breed, this dog was not a pointing dog. I have a good friend in the area who got her for free from an accidental litter primarily as a companion. I never saw the dog point once, and hunted over it several times a year for 4 years. He trained her to work close and work like a flushing dog. She did a fantastic job. She was so fast and athletic that once she got birdy, she got the bird up very quickly before it could run out of range. She normally worked within 20 yards and had the bird up very quickly so you didn't have to trail her far or at all. And this was only at the end of her hunting career. Not the traditional way of hunting a weim, but it was effective and we had fun. He also would hunt her for ducks into December, and from there if it was a cold day in December/January he would hunt upland that day so he could use her, and if it was a warm day in December/January he would hunt ducks with her. He had a lab at the same time, but the weim was better trained and he had a stronger emotional connection to her so wanted to hunt with that dog specifically.

My experience with the herding cross breed is why I made the comment about slipping through the cattails easier if my dog was smaller. My guestimate is that dog weighed 40 lbs. He just seemed to have an easier time and burn less energy hunting the same patches of cattails as what I had run my dog through on other occasions. Similarly, when my dog was 5 months old it seemed like he slipped through those cattails easier than he does now at about 74 lbs. The herding dog had not been trained to hunt. It is more of a case that I hunt with a guy who already had the dog as a pet and I made the comment along the lines of "as long as the dog will recall bring it out, we can put him down when my dog is tired and see what happens." His dog has not been trained at all as a flushing dog, but hunting with his dog is still more effective than hunting without a dog.

I only hunted over the german shepard once it was a chance encounter with an older fellow who was out hunting while visiting family. I was between the dogs at the time and hunting solo so after I asked about his dog and we had a pleasant conversation he invited me to walk the area with him. The dog was a little older, and probably slower because of that fact. The dog was trained well to stay within range and would start barking and dashing about when it thought birds were there. Found every downed bird we shot. Not traditional but a lot more effective than no dog.

My hunting over the labs and the chessie were on release sites which is different than hunting wild birds. All were owned by people that got them to duck hunt, and they were not hunted over upland birds very much. They were also couch potatoes most of the year and tired out quickly. I am not sure they were great representatives of what the respective breeds could do in the upland fields if properly trained and conditioned for it.

Now to directly answer your questions: The flushing dog I was impressed with the most? The weim by a long shot. Using a weim in that manner is an abomination to many, but she was good at it and it was fun. That said, I have not hunted over a high caliber well trained flushing dog from the traditional breeds. I also am not recommending you to get a weim and train it to flush.

As far as most popular flushing breeds that I see in the area, either from people I know at the shotgun range or what I observe in the field, it goes in the order of lab, chessie/golden retriever. I think that has more to do with this being a big duck hunting area ( I am in tri-cities right on the columbia) and people pulling double duty by using their duck dogs as upland dogs rather than inherent ability as a flushing breed.

[mask]

You might look into field bred cockers usually english bred. I think that would be my choice.

[Nozzer]

I don't have the same amount of experience with flushing breeds as some of the ladies and gentlemen on this board, so if you are looking for advice on flushing breeds, you should probably be soliciting others advice as well.

I will also clarify, that the point I was trying to make where you quoted me was to get the dog YOU want, not the dog that someone else wants you to get. A lot of people have a strong opinion on what the perfect hunting breed is, and their opinion is correct for them. At the end of the day the best hunting breed is a matter of personal choice. I am a firm believer that a part of that personal choice can be for reasons outside of hunting. For example, labs are great hunting dogs, particularly for ducks, but when you start talking to folks a lot will admit their duck dogs are labs because they had one as a kid, or they have small kids and they want a dog that the kids can tug on the ears of. I have heard the same admitted by some folks with golden retrievers. For others Chessies are the best duck dog. All three (and others) do a great job and are the best duck dog for that person. I was not trying to claim that Boykins are better than the other flushing breeds (I don't know them well enough to say that), just that you had an interest for sentimental reasons and sometimes that is a good enough reason to get the breed and hunt it. My only exposure to the breed aside from watching videos is in a social setting. I know a guy who only hunts ducks here and uses Boykins, but I have never hunted with him.

I have only lived in Washington for a little over 7 years. Before that I was in the Midwest and Southwest where I hunted both big game and small game. I was spoiled with big game where I lived previously and have not been impressed with Washingtons big game hunting. It took a couple years after moving here to make friends who had hunting dogs, and eventually get myself another dog so I have only been seriously hunting the area for birds for 4-5 years.

I have hunted over flushing dogs, and some of them in the Washington area, but not in my opinion none of them were flushing specific breeds. The flushing dogs I have hunted over are a Chessie, a couple labs, a herding cross breed, a German Shepard, and a Weimaraner.

I will clarify for the weim that while they are normally a pointing breed, this dog was not a pointing dog. I have a good friend in the area who got her for free from an accidental litter primarily as a companion. I never saw the dog point once, and hunted over it several times a year for 4 years. He trained her to work close and work like a flushing dog. She did a fantastic job. She was so fast and athletic that once she got birdy, she got the bird up very quickly before it could run out of range. She normally worked within 20 yards and had the bird up very quickly so you didn't have to trail her far or at all. And this was only at the end of her hunting career. Not the traditional way of hunting a weim, but it was effective and we had fun. He also would hunt her for ducks into December, and from there if it was a cold day in December/January he would hunt upland that day so he could use her, and if it was a warm day in December/January he would hunt ducks with her. He had a lab at the same time, but the weim was better trained and he had a stronger emotional connection to her so wanted to hunt with that dog specifically.

My experience with the herding cross breed is why I made the comment about slipping through the cattails easier if my dog was smaller. My guestimate is that dog weighed 40 lbs. He just seemed to have an easier time and burn less energy hunting the same patches of cattails as what I had run my dog through on other occasions. Similarly, when my dog was 5 months old it seemed like he slipped through those cattails easier than he does now at about 74 lbs. The herding dog had not been trained to hunt. It is more of a case that I hunt with a guy who already had the dog as a pet and I made the comment along the lines of "as long as the dog will recall bring it out, we can put him down when my dog is tired and see what happens." His dog has not been trained at all as a flushing dog, but hunting with his dog is still more effective than hunting without a dog.

I only hunted over the german shepard once it was a chance encounter with an older fellow who was out hunting while visiting family. I was between the dogs at the time and hunting solo so after I asked about his dog and we had a pleasant conversation he invited me to walk the area with him. The dog was a little older, and probably slower because of that fact. The dog was trained well to stay within range and would start barking and dashing about when it thought birds were there. Found every downed bird we shot. Not traditional but a lot more effective than no dog.

My hunting over the labs and the chessie were on release sites which is different than hunting wild birds. All were owned by people that got them to duck hunt, and they were not hunted over upland birds very much. They were also couch potatoes most of the year and tired out quickly. I am not sure they were great representatives of what the respective breeds could do in the upland fields if properly trained and conditioned for it.

Now to directly answer your questions: The flushing dog I was impressed with the most? The weim by a long shot. Using a weim in that manner is an abomination to many, but she was good at it and it was fun. That said, I have not hunted over a high caliber well trained flushing dog from the traditional breeds. I also am not recommending you to get a weim and train it to flush.

As far as most popular flushing breeds that I see in the area, either from people I know at the shotgun range or what I observe in the field, it goes in the order of lab, chessie/golden retriever. I think that has more to do with this being a big duck hunting area ( I am in tri-cities right on the columbia) and people pulling double duty by using their duck dogs as upland dogs rather than inherent ability as a flushing breed.

I find this all very interesting and again, appreciate the in-depth feedback. Now, I have to make a confession. I was not initially forthright. My wife was born and raised in North Charleston, South Carolina. We have two Brittanys and an Anatolian Shepherd to guard our animals. Three dogs in total. My wife is very reluctant to add more to the pack. To acquire a fourth for different hunting purposes, I'm playing to the sentimentality of my wife's low country!

As far as making a flusher out of a pointer, sacrilege. I would have sleepless nights if I was in that scenario, but good on your friend for giving that dog a worthwhile hunting life!

Honestly, the prey drive and biddability of a Boykin Spaniel seem very appealing to me. I would hunt the dog at least twice a week, probably 8-12 hours a week. Hopefully, with healthy hips he would have a long and fulfilling life.

[Nozzer]

Gentlemen, thank you very much for the thoughtful responses. Honestly, I've only hunted my Brittanys in that swamp land on the rez and they simply were not having it. They're smaller dogs, athletic, but are literally walking on the grass bent over to get anywhere and I'm not having it. I want them to hunt as long as possible without hip issues from day in/day out bush whacking. If you guys say a Boykin Spaniel is athletic enough to pull that off then I think we're heading in the right direction.

I'm not about to train a Brittany to hunt and point in cattails, I'm not skilled enough nor have the spiritual fortitude to see them struggle. I occasionally jump ducks, rarely sit in a blind and also have a penchant for chasing and flushing rabbits. I think a Boykin Spaniel is on the list! Thanks again!

How big are your Brits? Larger American variety or a small French Brittany? I have never hunted the reservation myself, but have seen some sloughs in the area with cattails so thick I am not convinced any dog would make it through. It isn't all of the cattails in the area, but it is some of them. Might be a part of the reason pheasants are so thick in those areas......even the coyotes might have trouble.

Good advice from Steve above for any breed, but especially true for breeds prone to hip dysplasia.

I have a 35 lbs. American Brittany male and a 20 lbs. French Brittany female. One ranges far, one ranges close. Both have a tough time bushwacking in swamp grass. My American Brittany ripped his ear open on Russian Olive last year chasing roosters in a hedge row and spent the afternoon with a nasty limp. That cemented my decision to spare my boy any more punishment hunting unsuitable terrain.

[chingon]

You'd do best to buy an athletic labrador. There's a reason everyone in Minnesota hunts pheasant with Labradors. The boykins I've seen don't have the strength or the legs to get through big, dense cattail sloughs. If you are dead set on a spaniel (which is fine, I have one myself), you should get an ESS, or if you are dead set on a brown spaniel, an American Water Spaniel. Cattails are hard to push through and the dogs that are good at it have a little body weight.

[Chemist]

My poor American Brittany was hunted in swamp land, forced to hop and wind his away through terrible vegetation and now at 10 years of age can only hunt 3-4 hours before ending the day with a seriously bad limp. That is one critical issue I want to avoid with a flushing dog.

I hate to say it, but there is a degree to which this is just par for the course. My uncle has had a number of English Setters that did 95% of their hunting in prairies and fields in Oklahoma and Missouri. It seemed like at about 8-12 years of age, their age became apparent and more so every year. Once they were in that age range, after a 2-3 day hunt with multiple dogs which were rotated, they would be limping and spend the next 3 days passed out in front of the fireplace. Towards the end of the age range, the limp would be present after the 1st day. Similar situation for a friend of mines GSPs. They would still give you a very cold look when you left with a shotgun and didn't bring them.

I don't have much exposure to brits, and they might be different, but it may be mostly an age thing and unavoidable. Others could comment better on the longevity of flushing breeds.

[Steve007]

I hate to say it, but there is a degree to which this is just par for the course. .... it may be mostly an age thing and unavoidable.

Putting aside hip dysplasia, how many people take the time to properly condition an older dog before bird season? You can't just leave them in the kennel and then "hunt them into shape." A younger dog can get away with it, but you have to put in the time intelligently conditioning an older dog. Many -- especially older hunters -- have no knowledge of how to do this, especially if they learned from their fathers and grandfathers who spent even less time or thought on this.

[Nozzer]

I hate to say it, but there is a degree to which this is just par for the course. .... it may be mostly an age thing and unavoidable.

Putting aside hip dysplasia, how many people take the time to properly condition an older dog before bird season? You can't just leave them in the kennel and then "hunt them into shape." A younger dog can get away with it, but you have to put in the time intelligently conditioning an older dog. Many -- especially older hunters -- have no knowledge of how to do this, especially if they learned from their fathers and grandfathers who spent even less time or thought on this.

How would you carry out that conditioning? I may have done it wrong on my end. I run a mile a day with my younger dogs in preparation for the season but my older boy I just provide light work in the field. My theory was that too much running would aggravate his hind leg limp. Would you run an older dog a mile a day to get them in shape?

[Nozzer]

My poor American Brittany was hunted in swamp land, forced to hop and wind his away through terrible vegetation and now at 10 years of age can only hunt 3-4 hours before ending the day with a seriously bad limp. That is one critical issue I want to avoid with a flushing dog.

I hate to say it, but there is a degree to which this is just par for the course. My uncle has had a number of English Setters that did 95% of their hunting in prairies and fields in Oklahoma and Missouri. It seemed like at about 8-12 years of age, their age became apparent and more so every year. Once they were in that age range, after a 2-3 day hunt with multiple dogs which were rotated, they would be limping and spend the next 3 days passed out in front of the fireplace. Towards the end of the age range, the limp would be present after the 1st day. Similar situation for a friend of mines GSPs. They would still give you a very cold look when you left with a shotgun and didn't bring them.

I don't have much exposure to brits, and they might be different, but it may be mostly an age thing and unavoidable. Others could comment better on the longevity of flushing breeds.

In its own way that it is reassuring. My Brittany is my first proper pointing dog and I've always worried I pushed him too far, too hard as the only dog I hunted over. He's in semi-retirement, hunting at most 2-3 hour a day, 2 days a week. I'm sure your uncle took great care of those setters so it would seem the limp is just an inevitability.

[Chemist]

I hate to say it, but there is a degree to which this is just par for the course. .... it may be mostly an age thing and unavoidable.

Putting aside hip dysplasia, how many people take the time to properly condition an older dog before bird season? You can't just leave them in the kennel and then "hunt them into shape." A younger dog can get away with it, but you have to put in the time intelligently conditioning an older dog. Many -- especially older hunters -- have no knowledge of how to do this, especially if they learned from their fathers and grandfathers who spent even less time or thought on this.

I think you make a very valid point here, and the answer to the number who properly condition their dogs is: not enough people. The better shape we keep ourselves (humans or dogs) the less health problems we are going to run into as we age. I also would be interested in what you recommend for conditioning for older dogs. I am far from an expert. I have been fortunate enough to have several friends and family members who ran upland dogs and most of my experience comes from hunting with them and seeing their dogs age. This still only amounts to me watching about 10 bird dogs progress through their life, and that is not directly living with them, etc. I have a lot less experience than some of folks here have.

In its own way that it is reassuring. My Brittany is my first proper pointing dog and I've always worried I pushed him too far, too hard as the only dog I hunted over. He's in semi-retirement, hunting at most 2-3 hour a day, 2 days a week. I'm sure your uncle took great care of those setters so it would seem the limp is just an inevitability.

Obviously it varies with individual and breed, but lets say a dog of a specific breed has a life expectancy of 13 years. 10/13 = 0.769. Lets call human life expectancy 80 years old. 0.769 X 80 = 62. So you could think of your dog as being in its early 60s. I don't know what the percentage of 60-65 year olds are who have a bum knee, hip, shoulder, or elbow but it is more than the number of 25 year olds. Many of the humans that don't have joint problems at that age have some combination of good diet/exercise/genetics which goes back to Steve's point above.

A friend of mine who is a veterinarian swears by giving dogs Cosequin daily for their joints. His advice is to buy the 250 tablet size and to get it from a major retailer. Apparently there has been issues with counterfeit Cosequin from eBay and third party Amazon retailers. You can decide if it is worth the $50 to try.

[gonehuntin']

For a part of my life I was the head trainer at perhaps the largest gun dog kennel in the country, running 120 dog's in training at a time. Most were flushing dog's but we ran a lot of pointing dog's also. Point is, I've had a lot of experience with probably every breed of flushing dog except the Boykin. However, though today I run DD pointing dog's, a lot of my hunting is in the cattail and phragmites swamps of South Dakota. It's where the bird's are when the crops are in. Some of them are so thick the pheasant actually have tunnels they use to get through them. My dog's do just fine in them. 100% of the time, the deer have multiple trails through them you can get on to get through them. I can absolutely tell you this, If the dog can't get through the cover YOU can't either.

In South Dakota the most common dog you see, used by outfitters and hunters alike, is the Labrador Retriever. I've hunted them in the Russian Olive jungles of Idaho, the phragmites of Wisconsin and South Dakota, the cattail of many states. I have never seen anything that a good dog couldn't get through. Period and no matter the sporting breed. I have never hunted the swamps of Washington or Oregon. I'll flat out tell you, I don't think a Boykin could hunt all day in the cover you depict. They're too small.

Conditioning is a big part of it and so is how you are for the dog in that cover. Running your dog with you a mile does nothing for the dog. I run mine off a class 2 E bike. We do about 5-7 miles a day at 10-14 mph three days a week. On off days they swim in Lake Michigan. That's the kind of conditioning it takes to hunt the cover you portray. Do you realize how the dog's will be torn up in that cover? Their feet will get cut to ribbons and the hair worn off their eyes. It's brutal.

All this is to tell you not to be breed blind, to think about this carefully. My recommendation remains unchanged; I believe a small lab or Field Springer will be your best dog for the job.

[Nozzer]

For a part of my life I was the head trainer at perhaps the largest gun dog kennel in the country, running 120 dog's in training at a time. Most were flushing dog's but we ran a lot of pointing dog's also. Point is, I've had a lot of experience with probably every breed of flushing dog except the Boykin. However, though today I run DD pointing dog's, a lot of my hunting is in the cattail and phragmites swamps of South Dakota. It's where the bird's are when the crops are in. Some of them are so thick the pheasant actually have tunnels they use to get through them. My dog's do just fine in them. 100% of the time, the deer have multiple trails through them you can get on to get through them. I can absolutely tell you this, If the dog can't get through the cover YOU can't either.

In South Dakota the most common dog you see, used by outfitters and hunters alike, is the Labrador Retriever. I've hunted them in the Russian Olive jungles of Idaho, the phragmites of Wisconsin and South Dakota, the cattail of many states. I have never seen anything that a good dog couldn't get through. Period and no matter the sporting breed. I have never hunted the swamps of Washington or Oregon. I'll flat out tell you, I don't think a Boykin could hunt all day in the cover you depict. They're too small.

Conditioning is a big part of it and so is how you are for the dog in that cover. Running your dog with you a mile does nothing for the dog. I run mine off a class 2 E bike. We do about 5-7 miles a day at 10-14 mph three days a week. On off days they swim in Lake Michigan. That's the kind of conditioning it takes to hunt the cover you portray. Do you realize how the dog's will be torn up in that cover? Their feet will get cut to ribbons and the hair worn off their eyes. It's brutal.

All this is to tell you not to be breed blind, to think about this carefully. My recommendation remains unchanged; I believe a small lab or Field Springer will be your best dog for the job.

Thank you for the insight and recommendation. What you describe as Russian Olive jungle in Idaho is very similar to the swampy jungles here in Washington and Oregon. Impenetrable stuff that can rip a dog up in short order.

I'm reluctant to go the Labrador Retriever route simply because I want a dog bred for upland hunting first, waterfowl hunting second. A field-bred Springer Spaniel does sound intriguing though. Are you saying, a 60 lbs athletic flushing breed is the way to go? Not Clumber Spaniels or Chesapeake Bay Retrievers?

I'm not about to hunt all day in those kind of conditions though. At most a 4 hour hunt. I split my hunts between swamp hunting for pheasant and grasslands/prairie hunting for huns, chukar and quail hence my Brittanys. Moreover... my wife is quietly patient when I do go on 8 hour excursions but I know I wear that thin every day I'm out...

[Steve007]

Part of what you can do in maintaining the usefulness of older dogs is simply what I would describe as good -- sometimes expensive-- animal husbandry. Beginning at eight years of age, my dog go to the vet annual for a full blood/urine workup. And while cosequin may well be indicated -- sometimes just for preventative purposes previous to the dog being "off" -- there are definitely options of a similar nature. Some dogs do better on one type of supplement than another. For that matter, adequan can be useful for a real problem.

However, conditioning is partially a matter of where you live and how many dogs you have. It is perfectly nice to get a four wheeler and cruise for 5 miles, but is simply not possible in the suburbs and it is entirely too stressful for an older dog.

The key to realistic conditioning of an older dog for most people beyond maintaining excellent health is simply not to get them get fully out of shape. My dogs are house (and office) dogs, but three days a week, we do exercise. I go out to a preserve that I know where there is a fenced training area and put in half an hour early in the morning. (In summer, that's the best we can do). It is true that kids do not exercise these days, and there are high schools all over with vast areas of open spaces which are thoroughly unused on weekends, We do hand signals, long-distance retrieving or just motivate through the open spaces with my dogs working at range. My dogs are well-trained, but I do have an e-collar on them just for safety. And of course, I try not to overstress any older dog in the field. Fanatics do not have long-lived dogs.

My last two bird dogs hunted very successfully through their 13 years, at which point we voluntarily retired. Both lived to be 16. I have cut back on hunting, but my current upper-level competition obedience dog (which requires a lot of jumping). a GWP, competed through his 11th year and we now do demos at senior care facilities and for little kids in his 12th year.

It is a matter of your lifestyle, how many dogs you have, having good sense and how much time you're willing to invest. Plus luck and selecting a dog with parents with good hips to begin with. However, one of my dogs was dysplastic and he hunted very effectively and soundly through his 13th year. Still, go with the odds.

[gonehuntin']

Thank you for the insight and recommendation. What you describe as Russian Olive jungle in Idaho is very similar to the swampy jungles here in Washington and Oregon. Impenetrable stuff that can rip a dog up in short order.

I'm reluctant to go the Labrador Retriever route simply because I want a dog bred for upland hunting first, waterfowl hunting second. A field-bred Springer Spaniel does sound intriguing though. Are you saying, a 60 lbs athletic flushing breed is the way to go? Not Clumber Spaniels or Chesapeake Bay Retrievers?

I'm not about to hunt all day in those kind of conditions though. At most a 4 hour hunt. I split my hunts between swamp hunting for pheasant and grasslands/prairie hunting for huns, chukar and quail hence my Brittanys. Moreover... my wife is quietly patient when I do go on 8 hour excursions but I know I wear that thin every day I'm out...

First, labs have always been upland dog's and very good ones. Hence their popularity in SD. I have seen very, very, few labs that would not quarter. I love the smaller Chesapeake's as well. The small, light ones are quicker dog's; the thing I never liked about them was the smell of their coat. Takes a lot of maintenance. Chesapeakes are also more demanding dog's of your time. They don't do well in kennel situations. I think the part about them being mean is a total fallacy. I have enjoyed every one I've trained.

The springer will have a harder, more exciting flush than the lab. They are also very good waterfowl dog's. There used to be a thing called Springer Rage, but I understand that's mostly relegated to the show dog's now. I trained one named "Socks" that was the worst biting dog I ever trained. He'd be laying along side the blind, me petting him, and suddenly he'd simply attack and bite. Hated him but like the kennel owner reminded me, "We're payed to train them all". The Springer will have a much higher coat maintenance than the Lab or Chessie. Boykin's have that curly coat that holds garbage too.

My own view is that it's pretty hard to find a good Cocker. Many are plagued with the same issues as the Springer, nipping or biting. I would definitely never own one where I hadn't handled BOTH parents. In truth, it was not my fortune to handle many field bred Cockers. They were not popular in Ca. and it was very hard to find a good one. When you get dog's in as a pro, the owners many times have no idea as to the breeding. So, the ones we got may have been junk breeding. I personally don't like the breed, but that's just me.

Sounds like with a flusher and the two Britt's, you'll have a great one-two punch. I'll be interested to see what you decide on.

[Nozzer]

Thank you for the insight and recommendation. What you describe as Russian Olive jungle in Idaho is very similar to the swampy jungles here in Washington and Oregon. Impenetrable stuff that can rip a dog up in short order.

I'm reluctant to go the Labrador Retriever route simply because I want a dog bred for upland hunting first, waterfowl hunting second. A field-bred Springer Spaniel does sound intriguing though. Are you saying, a 60 lbs athletic flushing breed is the way to go? Not Clumber Spaniels or Chesapeake Bay Retrievers?

I'm not about to hunt all day in those kind of conditions though. At most a 4 hour hunt. I split my hunts between swamp hunting for pheasant and grasslands/prairie hunting for huns, chukar and quail hence my Brittanys. Moreover... my wife is quietly patient when I do go on 8 hour excursions but I know I wear that thin every day I'm out...

First, labs have always been upland dog's and very good ones. Hence their popularity in SD. I have seen very, very, few labs that would not quarter. I love the smaller Chesapeake's as well. The small, light ones are quicker dog's; the thing I never liked about them was the smell of their coat. Takes a lot of maintenance. Chesapeakes are also more demanding dog's of your time. They don't do well in kennel situations. I think the part about them being mean is a total fallacy. I have enjoyed every one I've trained.

The springer will have a harder, more exciting flush than the lab. They are also very good waterfowl dog's. There used to be a thing called Springer Rage, but I understand that's mostly relegated to the show dog's now. I trained one named "Socks" that was the worst biting dog I ever trained. He'd be laying along side the blind, me petting him, and suddenly he'd simply attack and bite. Hated him but like the kennel owner reminded me, "We're payed to train them all". The Springer will have a much higher coat maintenance than the Lab or Chessie. Boykin's have that curly coat that holds garbage too.

My own view is that it's pretty hard to find a good Cocker. Many are plagued with the same issues as the Springer, nipping or biting. I would definitely never own one where I hadn't handled BOTH parents. In truth, it was not my fortune to handle many field bred Cockers. They were not popular in Ca. and it was very hard to find a good one. When you get dog's in as a pro, the owners many times have no idea as to the breeding. So, the ones we got may have been junk breeding. I personally don't like the breed, but that's just me.

Sounds like with a flusher and the two Britt's, you'll have a great one-two punch. I'll be interested to see what you decide on.

Again, thank you for the insight. All this is very helpful and informative! I'm ok with the extra coat grooming. As I'm sure you are aware, Brittanys are burr magnets.

Very interesting to hear your take on Chessies. I have an Anatolian Shepherd that guards our goats and pigs and with the reputation of Chessies being dominant I've been initially reluctant to bring one into the family. I don't want him tussling with our livestock dog, however, if that's a myth, maybe I will reconsider Chessies.

I'm curious, why would you rate a smaller Chessie above a larger one when bushwacking? I would think a larger one would have an easier time navigating the density of the vegetation because of their strength and longer gait. When all is said and done I find the flushing/retrieving breed I like I'm sticking with them til I'm in the ground. I hate change and am in fact breed blind!

[gonehuntin']

The larger the dog, the less endurance. Where the smaller, more animated dog, will weasel through the tough stuff, the big dog's try to bull through. It is very taxing on them. You will have a harder time finding a good Chessie as well, especially the lighter, faster ones. I've had good luck with the Chesdale Chippewa Chief line, but that was a long time ago. "Chipper" was one of my favorite dog's on the truck. The Parkers in Pocatello, Idaho used to have some fast, nice dog's as well. Not sure if they're still breeding or not, or if they're still alive. Last I knew their son, Rob, was carrying on the tradition.